Gun mods and legal repercussions

565 Views 22 Replies 8 Participants Last post by INV136, 9 d ago

fatherguidosarducci

Discussion Starter · 19 d ago

I realize this may have been beaten to death but I thought I would bring this up again as I recently modified both my p-01 and p-01 omega through CZ custom: hammer spring, recoil spring, lighter/smoother DA and lighter SA with a slightly improved re set. FYI: the p-07 definitely came out better, as the p-01 still has some stacking. And yes, I realize there is more they can do with the standard p-01 than the omega version.

In any case, I plan on both of these being my defensive firearms-- night stand, truck, hiking, and possibly IWB CC.

I've always been under the impression that modifications like this should not be a big issue if--God forbid-- I have to draw and fire this weapon on someone who is threatening my life or that of someone near me. I've read the views of proponents and opponents of gun modification, and recently came across an article that was very well thought out, and the comments that came back at the author were interesting.

www.concealedcarry.com

Should You Modify the Trigger of Your Everyday Carry (EDC) Gun?

For example, your firearm may come from the factory requiring 5.5 pounds of force on the trigger to fire a cartridge. Reducing the weight of the trigger pull to 3.5 pounds of pressure needed to fire the cartridge would make it easier to pull the trigger.

www.concealedcarry.com

It got me thinking quite a bit about this issue. So many people modify their guns, and I know it's not just for competition shooting/range toys. If they didn't, CZ customs and Cajun Gun Works wouldn't be so busy.
It raised the question-- yet again-- is it worth doing anything to a gun that is strictly and EDC/defensive weapon outside of changing out the sights and grips? Are you/we risking too much at the hands of a scumbag attorney looking to sue you on behalf of the person who was shot? I'm not as worried from a criminal liability standpoint as I am from a civil suit standpoint.
And yet, if you buy a competition ready gun such as a CZ sp-01 competition model or the Shadow 2, how is that any different than what I did to my p-01 or p-07? If anything, those guns are still more 'tricked out' than mine are.

It's made me re think keeping my p-01 omega and perhaps going back to get a stock p-01 and just learning to live with the DA trigger.
I would love to hear from anyone who has experience having had to fire their weapon, and if it was modified, and what type of ordeal they went through.

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fatherguidosarducci

Discussion Starter · #2 · 19 d ago

another article that got me thinking:

www.minutemanreview.com

Can I Put a Custom Trigger on My Concealed Carry Gun? [2022]

Custom triggers can help make your firearm easier and faster to shoot. However, they may not be a good idea in a carry gun; find out why and what you can do instead.

www.minutemanreview.com

www.minutemanreview.com

Crusherdestroyer

· #3 · 19 d ago

I personally wouldn’t worry about that.
In a defensive shooting 2 things are key, and they both come after the incident.

Be the first to call 911.
Get the best lawyer you can.

I would stay away from having gunsmith company names on it, and stupid stuff like “smile and wait for the flash”.

Reactions: 1

El Guapo

· #4 · 19 d ago

Crusherdestroyer said:
I personally wouldn’t worry about that.
In a defensive shooting 2 things are key, and they both come after the incident.

Be the first to call 911.
Get the best lawyer you can.

I would stay away from having gunsmith company names on it, and stupid stuff like “smile and wait for the flash”.

Agree

I'm not a lawyer but modifications that make the pistol easier to shoot accurately should be easily defensible in criminal court, should the case even make it there and should the issue even be raised.

Civil court, in tort proceedings, is a different set of issues but if your state shields you from civil liability for a good shoot the point is moot anyway.

Bottom line is, avoid stupid places, stupid people, and stupid things; and make sure your shoot is legally clean if you do have to act. That will solve 99.9% of your problems and will make any reasonable modification a non issue.

El Guapo

· #5 · 19 d ago

fatherguidosarducci said:
I realize this may have been beaten to death but I thought I would bring this up again as I recently modified both my p-01 and p-01 omega through CZ custom: hammer spring, recoil spring, lighter/smoother DA and lighter SA with a slightly improved re set. FYI: the p-07 definitely came out better, as the p-01 still has some stacking. And yes, I realize there is more they can do with the standard p-01 than the omega version.

In any case, I plan on both of these being my defensive firearms-- night stand, truck, hiking, and possibly IWB CC.

I've always been under the impression that modifications like this should not be a big issue if--God forbid-- I have to draw and fire this weapon on someone who is threatening my life or that of someone near me. I've read the views of proponents and opponents of gun modification, and recently came across an article that was very well thought out, and the comments that came back at the author were interesting.

Should You Modify the Trigger of Your Everyday Carry (EDC) Gun?

For example, your firearm may come from the factory requiring 5.5 pounds of force on the trigger to fire a cartridge. Reducing the weight of the trigger pull to 3.5 pounds of pressure needed to fire the cartridge would make it easier to pull the trigger.

www.concealedcarry.com

It got me thinking quite a bit about this issue. So many people modify their guns, and I know it's not just for competition shooting/range toys. If they didn't, CZ customs and Cajun Gun Works wouldn't be so busy.
It raised the question-- yet again-- is it worth doing anything to a gun that is strictly and EDC/defensive weapon outside of changing out the sights and grips? Are you/we risking too much at the hands of a scumbag attorney looking to sue you on behalf of the person who was shot? I'm not as worried from a criminal liability standpoint as I am from a civil suit standpoint.
And yet, if you buy a competition ready gun such as a CZ sp-01 competition model or the Shadow 2, how is that any different than what I did to my p-01 or p-07? If anything, those guns are still more 'tricked out' than mine are.

It's made me re think keeping my p-01 omega and perhaps going back to get a stock p-01 and just learning to live with the DA trigger.
I would love to hear from anyone who has experience having had to fire their weapon, and if it was modified, and what type of ordeal they went through.

How well do you know your state's laws regarding self defense? Does your state shield you from civil liability if your shooting is a good one (meaning it is ruled lawful self defense)?

The more you know, the less you worry about this issue.

crc4

· #6 · 19 d ago (Edited)

If you don't know the 5 elements of a legally justified self-defense action you're behind the 8-ball and any gun modifications are the least of your worries.

5 Elements Required for a Justified Self-Defense Claim

Reactions: 2

INV136

· #7 · 18 d ago

Concentrate on learning and knowing when to use deadly force and when it's not legal to use deadly force in your particular state of residence. That is much more important and may keep you from getting arrested and/or indicted in the first place. However, if you live in NYC with Alvin Bragg, a demokrat DA, or Los Angeles with DA George Gascon, or Chicago with DA Kim Foxx, or St Louis with Circuit Attorney Kim Gardner, then you're screwed no matter what you do because they hate you and your 2nd Amendment right to defend yourself and will do whatever they can to persecute/prosecute you. Move out to a state that believes in the right to self defense. If you cannot move, then it comes down to the choice of using legally justified deadly force to protect your life and the lives of your loved ones and face life in prison as a result, or just don't do anything to defend yourself or your loved ones and then you don't have to worry about going to prison in a communist state. Just funeral arrangements.

I make modifications to my guns that improve their accuracy. Lightening and reducing the length of the trigger pull definitely result in an improvement of my accuracy. If your EDC is inaccurate or unreliable, then you're increasing your inability to hit the threat that you're aiming at and increasing the probability of missing your threat, and that your stray bullet will hit an innocent bystander. Also, you should always keep your trigger finger outside of the trigger guard and alongside the frame until you are ready to pull the trigger on a threat. So, your trigger weight/ease of pull has no bearing on having an accidental discharge. Unless you have a gun like Alec Baldwin's gun that he claimed went off by itself without any pull of the trigger (which everybody knows that he was lying about).

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El Guapo

· #8 · 17 d ago

INV136 said:
Concentrate on learning and knowing when to use deadly force and when it's not legal to use deadly force in your particular state of residence. That is much more important and may keep you from getting arrested and/or indicted in the first place. However, if you live in NYC with Alvin Bragg, a demokrat DA, or Los Angeles with DA George Gascon, or Chicago with DA Kim Foxx, or St Louis with Circuit Attorney Kim Gardner, then you're screwed no matter what you do because they hate you and your 2nd Amendment right to defend yourself and will do whatever they can to persecute/prosecute you. Move out to a state that believes in the right to self defense. If you cannot move, then it comes down to the choice of using legally justified deadly force to protect your life and the lives of your loved ones and face life in prison as a result, or just don't do anything to defend yourself or your loved ones and then you don't have to worry about going to prison in a communist state. Just funeral arrangements.

I make modifications to my guns that improve their accuracy. Lightening and reducing the length of the trigger pull definitely result in an improvement of my accuracy. If your EDC is inaccurate or unreliable, then you're increasing your inability to hit the threat that you're aiming at and increasing the probability of missing your threat, and that your stray bullet will hit an innocent bystander. Also, you should always keep your trigger finger outside of the trigger guard and alongside the frame until you are ready to pull the trigger on a threat. So, your trigger weight/ease of pull has no bearing on having an accidental discharge. Unless you have a gun like Alec Baldwin's gun that he claimed went off by itself without any pull of the trigger (which everybody knows that he was lying about).

I wish I could like this post more than once.

Finger inside the trigger guard is something I cannot tolerate on anyone who shoots with me. When I officiate in a USPSA match that is one of the things I'm looking for the most. Not because I enjoy disqualifying competitors, but because it's one of the absolutely most dangerous and negligent things you can do with a firearm, not to mention a direct violation of USPSA rules.

fatherguidosarducci

Discussion Starter · #9 · 16 d ago

INV136 said:
Concentrate on learning and knowing when to use deadly force and when it's not legal to use deadly force in your particular state of residence. That is much more important and may keep you from getting arrested and/or indicted in the first place. However, if you live in NYC with Alvin Bragg, a demokrat DA, or Los Angeles with DA George Gascon, or Chicago with DA Kim Foxx, or St Louis with Circuit Attorney Kim Gardner, then you're screwed no matter what you do because they hate you and your 2nd Amendment right to defend yourself and will do whatever they can to persecute/prosecute you. Move out to a state that believes in the right to self defense. If you cannot move, then it comes down to the choice of using legally justified deadly force to protect your life and the lives of your loved ones and face life in prison as a result, or just don't do anything to defend yourself or your loved ones and then you don't have to worry about going to prison in a communist state. Just funeral arrangements. I make modifications to my guns that improve their accuracy. Lightening and reducing the length of the trigger pull definitely result in an improvement of my accuracy. If your EDC is inaccurate or unreliable, then you're increasing your inability to hit the threat that you're aiming at and increasing the probability of missing your threat, and that your stray bullet will hit an innocent bystander. Also, you should always keep your trigger finger outside of the trigger guard and alongside the frame until you are ready to pull the trigger on a threat. So, your trigger weight/ease of pull has no bearing on having an accidental discharge. Unless you have a gun like Alec Baldwin's gun that he claimed went off by itself without any pull of the trigger (which everybody knows that he was lying about). [/QUOTE I hear and am aware of everything you said. The discussion here isn’t about accidental/negligent discharge, but rather ‘willful tort’ and if modifying your EDC trIgger to intentionally neutralize the threat can increase your liability both on a criminal and civil liability side, if the family of the scumbag hires the right attorney. i think that’s why it’s important to go through companies like CZ custom or Cajun gun works, who work on the guns to keep them within acceptable specs for the purposes we use them for. And I live in AZ.

fatherguidosarducci

Discussion Starter · #10 · 16 d ago

I hear you and get your points.
I’m not referring to or concerned with negligent discharge scenarios. I’m talking about ‘willful Tort’ and using my weapon in a defensive situation with the sole intent to neutralize the threat.

the question is whether modifying the gun specifically with trigger pull weight can get you in trouble if the family hires the right scumbag attorney on the civil side of things.
I think the right thing I did was to go through a place like CZ customs (or Cajun gun works). These guys know how to keep guns for defensive carry within recognized/acceptable specs. I’m just being a bit overly cautious as I think it’s always better to prepare for worst case scenario
And I live in Arizona

crc4

· #11 · 16 d ago

Whether it's at a criminal trial or civil trial either the prosecutor or the civil lawyer can raise any issue that they want to further their case. Thinking that a non-modified firearm gets you off from either a criminal and civil trial is folly.

Unless the firearm can be proved to have been inherently dangerous by modifications (which one should not do, like a .25 lb trigger pull) there's no harm in modifications.

Again, what counts as a modification? Changing grips, replacing the factory sight, replacing the recoil spring, etc.? If the prosecutor claimed your changing grips made your actions legally unqualified as a SD event, that's easily defeated by a GOOD SD lawyer.

If your SD event is within the 5 elements of a legally justified SD claim, the legal gun modifications reasonably done are almost moot.

Reactions: 1

El Guapo

· #12 · 14 d ago

fatherguidosarducci said:
I hear you and get your points.
I’m not referring to or concerned with negligent discharge scenarios. I’m talking about ‘willful Tort’ and using my weapon in a defensive situation with the sole intent to neutralize the threat.

the question is whether modifying the gun specifically with trigger pull weight can get you in trouble if the family hires the right scumbag attorney on the civil side of things.
I think the right thing I did was to go through a place like CZ customs (or Cajun gun works). These guys know how to keep guns for defensive carry within recognized/acceptable specs. I’m just being a bit overly cautious as I think it’s always better to prepare for worst case scenario
And I live in Arizona

You seem extremely preoccupied with something that none of us are really concerned about, and we've explained why.

At this point I think you have three options

Discuss with an attorney in person
Stop carrying handguns unless they are 100% unmodified
Stop carrying handguns

fatherguidosarducci

Discussion Starter · #13 · 13 d ago

El Guapo said:
You seem extremely preoccupied with something that none of us are really concerned about, and we've explained why.

At this point I think you have three options

Discuss with an attorney in person

Stop carrying handguns unless they are 100% unmodified

Stop carrying handguns

Better to be prepared. I’ve raised my points to see what others think as this is— well you know — a discussion forum. If it bothers you, there’s no need to respond.

El Guapo

· #14 · 13 d ago

fatherguidosarducci said:
Better to be prepared. I’ve raised my points to see what others think as this is— well you know — a discussion forum. If it bothers you, there’s no need to respond.

Yes it's a discussion forum. We discussed it and nobody agreed with your concern, yet you keep hammering at it.

It's as if you keep fishing for someone to validate your concerns.

hiketheball

· #15 · 12 d ago

fatherguidosarducci said:
another article that got me thinking:

Can I Put a Custom Trigger on My Concealed Carry Gun? [2022]

Custom triggers can help make your firearm easier and faster to shoot. However, they may not be a good idea in a carry gun; find out why and what you can do instead.

www.minutemanreview.com

Whatever firearm, for whatever purpose, under whatever circumstances, I want to be the accurate in hitting the target.
I do not "spruce up" any work tool -- "come and get it", Infidel", etc. never appear; nor to colored barrels, etc. (I loved the Performance Center EZ 9 but it was multi-colored. I would like a single color.)
On sport tools, I don't really care as long as they don't mess up the "whatevers" for me.
On all tools, internal improvement are just that -- "out of sight" improvement to help me reach the "whatevers".
Of course, most of my tools come from the Czech Republic.

AnonymousCitizen

· #16 · 12 d ago

It can be your legal life on the line after a justified shooting, so IMHO, concerns about whether or not self defense firearm modifications could be used against you by a creative attorney are not unreasonable. There are plenty of people in jails who are not guilty of the crime that they were convicted of because of an over-zealous or deceptive or eager-for-a-win prosecuting attorney - certain modifications are just one more thing that could give them an edge, IMHO. And if you're thinking of basing your freedom on the "jury of my peers" stuff, or the idea of jury nullification, read about how jury instructions pretty much limit the jury (or try to limit) into their deliberation "responsibilities", and intimidate the jury into following the law (good or bad), versus following their conscience. I'd rather NOT give them any edge they might use against me.

crc4

· #17 · 12 d ago (Edited)

AnonymousCitizen said:
It can be your legal life on the line after a justified shooting, so IMHO, concerns about whether or not self defense firearm modifications could be used against you by a creative attorney are not unreasonable. There are plenty of people in jails who are not guilty of the crime that they were convicted of because of an over-zealous or deceptive or eager-for-a-win prosecuting attorney - certain modifications are just one more thing that could give them an edge, IMHO. And if you're thinking of basing your freedom on the "jury of my peers" stuff, or the idea of jury nullification, read about how jury instructions pretty much limit the jury (or try to limit) into their deliberation "responsibilities", and intimidate the jury into following the law (good or bad), versus following their conscience. I'd rather NOT give them any edge they might use against me.

Then, if you do not want modifications, keep everything just like the firearm was sold to you. Change nothing. No new grips, sights, no oil on moving parts, and probably keep in the the box with no magazine inserted, and certainly never put ammo into the firearm as that too would be a modification.

Otherwise, you are modifying the firearm from the manufacturer's delivery to you.

"Your Honor. This defendant, the shooter, is claiming a self-defense justification. However, the defendant removed the pistol from the factory case as delivered from the manufacturer with the intent of inserting the manufacturer's non-inserted magazine into the firearm. This certainly shows the intent of the defendant to render this pistol into a lethal and horribly deadly instrument of murder with his modification.

"Our forensics have shown also that the defendant also used 'gun' oil on the pistol to further make the pistol easier to rack back the slide. Yet this modification was completely unnecessary as the manufacturer did not deliver the pistol to the defendant with this oil and this was, in fact, a modification of deadly action and shows the malicious intent of the defendant."

"These actions prove that the defendant acted with complete irresponsibility and was outside the scope of a justified self-defense claim. Such modifications make a "Guilty" verdict the only possible decision of this jury."

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hiketheball

· #18 · 12 d ago

AnonymousCitizen said:
It can be your legal life on the line after a justified shooting, so IMHO, concerns about whether or not self defense firearm modifications could be used against you by a creative attorney are not unreasonable. There are plenty of people in jails who are not guilty of the crime that they were convicted of because of an over-zealous or deceptive or eager-for-a-win prosecuting attorney - certain modifications are just one more thing that could give them an edge, IMHO. And if you're thinking of basing your freedom on the "jury of my peers" stuff, or the idea of jury nullification, read about how jury instructions pretty much limit the jury (or try to limit) into their deliberation "responsibilities", and intimidate the jury into following the law (good or bad), versus following their conscience. I'd rather NOT give them any edge they might use against me.

You wrote, "...certain modifications are just one more thing that could give them an edge..."

Which modifications? Which modifications reach the threshold to cause a conviction?

Reactions: 1

AnonymousCitizen

· #19 · 12 d ago

I don't have a "problematical modifications list", but I can tell you from my own personal experience in non-firearms court matters, and from listening to my son-in-law who's a very successful personal injury attorney, that a motivated, creative, aggressive attorney can move a case his\her way regardless of the law - they can twist facts and be very creative with things like motivation and intent and any other facet of the case that they can use to their advantage - I've seen it happen - and don't depend on a judge to safeguard your rights - judges are nothing more than hack attorneys that couldn't cut it in the real world, so they become farm animals, versus predators - judges are like assembly line workers, moving their docket items forward towards completion, with little or no regard for the individuals behind the case.

Ayoob makes a distinction between home gunsmith changes versus professional gunsmith changes. And being the skeptical guy I am, I'd have to point out that even though the folks that sell different modification packages are fine folks that don't wanna break the law, when the SHTF, it's gonna be you that'll be standing there in the courtroom and dealing with consequences, NOT the folks that modified your gun.

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El Guapo

· #20 · 12 d ago

AnonymousCitizen said:
I don't have a "problematical modifications list", but I can tell you from my own personal experience in non-firearms court matters, and from listening to my son-in-law who's a very successful personal injury attorney, that a motivated, creative, aggressive attorney can move a case his\her way regardless of the law - they can twist facts and be very creative with things like motivation and intent and any other facet of the case that they can use to their advantage - I've seen it happen - and don't depend on a judge to safeguard your rights - judges are nothing more than hack attorneys that couldn't cut it in the real world, so they become farm animals, versus predators - judges are like assembly line workers, moving their docket items forward towards completion, with little or no regard for the individuals behind the case.

Ayoob makes a distinction between home gunsmith changes versus professional gunsmith changes. And being the skeptical guy I am, I'd have to point out that even though the folks that sell different modification packages are fine folks that don't wanna break the law, when the SHTF, it's gonna be you that'll be standing there in the courtroom and dealing with consequences, NOT the folks that modified your gun.

LOL

OK

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